Due to a bereavement there will be no video episode this week. Blues Talk TV will return next week to discuss the Munster and Zebre games
Where to begin? Leinster’s proud home record?
Last loss to Munster in Dublin was October 2008. 18 0. From memory that was the only time Leinster have been nilled in the RDS.
In the intervening years home league losses have been fairly infrequent.
2009/10 Final
2010/11 None
2011/12 Glasgow, Ospreys and Final
2012/13 Ulster
2013/14 none
The season with the most home league losses (2011/12) was our best season ever. We only lost 4 games in all competitions. 3 of those were to the Ospreys. 2 of them were by a single point and only one was by more than 4 points.
Many would say Leinster have been living on their reputation since that season. That performances have been slipping and that the results would finally catch up with those performances.
One school of thought is that when a team can grind out wins while playing badly, that is the sign of a great team. In some ways the opposite is that if you look after the performance then the results will follow.
So. Have the chickens finally come home to roost for Leinster? Or will this loss make them stronger because of what they will learn about themselves from it?
The game itself has been written and spoken about ad nauseam since the weekend. Suffice to say that Leinster were bullied by a Munster team who perhaps “needed” the win even more than they did. Even when they shot themselves in the foot with 4 yellows and a penalty try we could not nail a losing bonus point.
Matt O’Connor certainly did not have his finest hour. The mindset of the team for a game is developed by the coaches and senior players in the week leading up to it. Of course individual players have to put in the work and develop their own motivations, but the basic “mood” is set by the coaching staff in their preparation and gameplan. If the players have confidence in this they will be more likely to deliver on the day.
The gameplan seemed to include under resourcing rucks, kicking the ball away when we had 1 and even 2 player advantages, and not kicking smartly enough in general.
Add in the bit of “sillybuggers” that he played with injuries and team selection, and the complaining about the ref on the radio the following day (whether he was right or wrong) and it all adds up to a very poor weekend for Mr O’Connor.
We missed Shane Jennings of course for this fixture as was widely predicted. Both for his deck work and even more importantly for his leadership. Dom Ryan started well and showed a good bit of aggression early on. Perhaps a little too eager in giving away the first penalty, but he just doesn’t have the smarts (or obviously the experience) of Jeno.
Fanning gave his increasingly solid performance, Cronin carried well, Madigan showed some spark, the Byrne twins did not look out of place in such a high profile fixture, but most of the rest were “meh” at best. Jimmy Gopperth having one of his worse displays in particular.
Hopefully this is the low point of the season and the lessons learned will fuel a “comeback” that puts our season back on track.
Looking at the fixtures between this game and our next game v Munster on Stephen’s day our target should be to go into that game on a streak of 9 wins in a row. 2 Italian away games. Home games v Edinburgh, Connacht and a meeting with the Ospreys in the RDS (while Wales play their 4th Autumn International) are the 5 very winnable Pro 12 games.
None of the teams in our European group are in great form either.
First up are Wasps who have been thrown into turmoil with their impending move to Coventry. That has got to be a distraction.
The away trip to Castres is possibly the hardest, but they have just come off the bottom of the league by putting 50 points on “Bernard Jackman’s Grenoble”. Finally there are the back to back games v “Conor O’Shea’s Harlequins” in December. Losing one of these OR the Castres game would be about the only acceptable loss in the 9 games.
In most other recent seasons you would put your wages on an accumulator for Leinster to successfully negotiate this sequence of fixtures. From where they are now though it is hard to be so confident.
We don’t seem to know our best 10 12 13 combo. We are not playing well, and we have some long term, high profile injuries to our 2 best ball carriers.
On the plus side…… Most of the other injured players will be returning in the very near future. Strauss, Kirchner, Jack McGrath and Moore as soon as this weekend, with Jennings and Kevin McLaughlin not far behind. Fitzgerald (Fingers crossed) Dave Kearney, McFadden and Jordi Murphy should be ready after the break for the November tests, (Some perhaps sooner) and hopefully we can sustain a minimum of new injuries to crucial players in the meantime.
So. Onwards and upwards with a half full glass. This is the time that the team needs our support the most!
This weeks episode takes a look back at Leinster’s bonus point victory over the Cardiff Blues and previews the derby clash between Leinster and Munster in the Aviva Stadium. The team take a look at Leinster’s form under Coach Matt O’Connor and the rest of the weeks news and results.
This week on Blues Talk we take a look back at Leinster’s one point loss away to local rivals Connacht in the Sportsground and review the rest of the weeks action. We look forward to Cardiff’s visit to the RDS, preview the rest of the weekends action, and wonder about the Union’s attitude to female supporters
This week on Blues Talk we take a look back at Leinster’s bonus point win over Llanelli Scarlets and preview the always difficult trip to Galway to take on Connacht in interpro action. We also discusss the rest of the Guinness Pro12 action this weekend and last.
This week on Blues Talk we take a look back at Leinster’s loss away to Glasgow and debate whether it was a bonus point gained or matchpoints thrown away. We also take a look back at the rest of an exciting first week back for the Guinness Pro12 and preview the coming weekends fixtures.
Irelands only Rugby video blog returns for another season and finds the team previewing the upcoming Guinness Pro12 season for Leinster and the rest of the Irish provinces ,and looking forward to Leinster opening their defense of the title in a reverse of last seasons Grand Final – away to Glasgow.
The Welsh predicament and a “British and Irish League”
We all know that there is uproar in Welsh Rugby that is looking like it might tear the pro game in Wales apart completely. As outsiders with a vested interest, via the shared pro 12 league, this could well affect what is effectively our “domestic” league. This has made those of us in BluesTalk mansions think of various external scenarios that might be explored in search of a solution.
As the “silly season” is drawing to a close this weekend with the first friendly matches taking place. We are running out of time for a completely hare brained scheme that would never work so here goes.
If you ask most disgruntled fans of the Welsh “Regions” what would be their preferred outcome, they would answer with an Anglo Welsh or British and Irish league. They like to hark back to the days of Amateur clubs playing English opposition and filling their grounds etc.etc.
Rather than blame regionalisation or unprofesionalism/bad marketing on behalf of the regions for lack of fans travelling to games they blame the quality of opposition in the pro 12. They feel that playing v English teams week in week out would solve their issues with crowd size.
This piece seeks to indulge these opinions or at least follow them to a few possible logical conclusions.
Before we begin I would ask you to suspend your disbelief on the following issues.
A significant proportion of Welsh rugby fans do not support the “Regions” to begin with, for numerous reasons which we will not go into here
The Regions are at war with their union, and for any of this to be a runner, the Union would have to be on board.
The “championship” (2nd tier) clubs in England would be up in arms about any possible “ring fencing” of the top tier of Rugby in England. (More on this later*)
The other 3 “home” unions would also have to agree to this.
The premiership and the Pro12 would cease to exist.
Could we trust the PRL? As they would have a large say in any proposed competition.
We would have to square the circle between the independent clubs in England and the Union controlled ones in Ireland and Scotland…… And of course what ever we end up with in Wales.
I’m sure there are many more but that is enough disbelief to suspend for now.
One of the main gripes of the Welsh regional fans is that the Pro12 does not work, as fixtures, referees, citing commissions etc. are too hard to organise among the member unions. Would this be easier? (because the PRL would impose their will on the rest) or harder? (Because we are swapping the Italians for the way more vociferous English) So. To the possible completion…….
Geography is what sells it to the Welsh as they are close to the like of Bath, Bristol, Gloucester etc. So geography is what we will base it on.
Us Irish have to travel overseas to play anyone else anyway so no change for us.
The Scottish could have some shorter journeys eg Newcastle.
The English would also lose their longer journeys (Newcastle to Exeter anyone?)
Basing it on the current Premiership and the Pro 12, with a couple of teams from the Championship to replace the Italians, I have come up with a 24 team competition based on 3 geographical “conferences”
After 14 rounds of home and away the competition “splits in 2”. Top 4 in each conference in one and bottom 4 in the other.
The top layer qualify for the European cup automatically with the remaining place(s) for the finalists (or perhaps just the champions) in the bottom tier.
You then have 10 free weeks of the current season remaining.
6 weeks of round robin where each team plays 4 teams from another conference and 2 from the remaining one.
1st place teams have 5 home and 1 away game.
2nd place teams have 4 and 2
3rd place teams have 2 and 4
4th place have 1 and 5
NRL style playoffs which take 2 weeks before the semi and final weekends.
QED.
Irish and Northern conference
Connacht
Edinburgh
Glasgow Warriors
Leinster
Munster
Newcastle Falcons
Sale Sharks
Ulster
Welsh and Western conference
Bath Rugby
Bristol
Cardiff Blues
Exeter Chiefs
Gloucester Rugby
Newport Gwent Dragons
Ospreys
Scarlets
London and Midlands conference
Harlequins
Leicester Tigers
London Irish
London Welsh
Northampton Saints
Saracens
Wasps
Worcester Warriors
*OK I tried to think of a mechanism where the team with the lowest points was relegated to the English championship, but it was too complex as it could be a non English team.
You could have London Welsh’s spot (as the newly promoted team) up for grabs, meaning the promoted team would always play in the London and Midlands conference. This would ensure that it was always an English team.
Told you it was hare brained.
Personally I would not be in favour of any of it, but at least I spent 90 minutes of my time considering it……..
By now some Leinster fans have started to panic. No signing in the backs for next season. 2 NIQ spaces left now that Roux has gone west but not a rumble since there were vague rumours about a young lad called Michael Collins a few months ago.
The problem: Replacing an icon in Irish and World rugby.
The other problem: No players of high quality available due to the world cup next year.
The other other problem: French and Japanese money will hoover up any spare talent in this limited market.
The solution(s)?
Sign a decent player from the southern hemisphere who is below the radar of international teams?
Problem here is again the small market, and the need to sign someone better than what we have, means that is a very small stock of players weare looking at.
Traditionally New Zealand would be the place to look as Australia has no competition between super rugby and the AIL club rugby equivalent (although they are starting one next month http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rugby_Championship) and South Africa has been more of a hunting ground for forwards.
Looking at what has already been mined from this small pool, Bundee Aki would appear to be the pick of what is available…… and he has signed for Connacht, perhaps to play 12 beside Robbie Henshaw. The man who is at the head of the Bod replacement queue for Ireland. At least until Payne qualifies in October.
Mils Muliaina of course is the big signing out west. Perhaps not exactly what we are looking for in Leinster at this point, but would be well capable of playing to a high standard at 15 or even 13.
Elsewhere we have Louis Ludik for Ulster, a Shark who has come via 2nd division Agen in France and Tyler Bleyendaal for Munster, a 10/12 from Canterbury. Again neither one is really what we are after.
Andrew Smith is being touted as a bit of a bosher of a 13 for Munster on a one year contract. However I would consider him as a decent enough stopgap for them (or indeed us). Compare him to that other Andrew (Goodman) who played a season for us lastyear. He got some stick for not being of a high enough standard to get thrown into a HC game v Clermont in December 2012. Harsh as he was signed as a 3rd choice 10 or back up 12. Good solid player who could place kick and do all the basics to a high Pro12 standard. Smith has played about as much super rugby for the Brumbies as Goodman played NPC for the Macos. That would point to him being of a higher standard.
Such a player could fill in for us and kick the can down the road for a year while our young players improve and until the expected exodus from the south after the World Cup happens.
So. Young players. Who is there? Well…..
In addition to our internationally capped senior outside backs
D’Arcy
Fitzgerald
Kearney
Kearney
Kirchner
McFadden
We have these outside backs who are already in the senior squad and are (essentially) uncapped for Ireland
Macken
O’Shea
Reid (1 cap in Argentina)
Coghlan-Murray
Fanning
When you include the Academy and the rumoured entrants for next season you have TEN EXTRA outside backs, at least 7 of whom can play in the centre.
Byrne
Dardis
Fitzpatrick
Kelleher
Brewer
Coghlan
Daly
Farrell
O’Loughlin
Ringrose
So. Kicking the can down the road is not such a bad thing. We are definitely light in the backs in the short term and there is a gaping Bod shaped hole there. But if we did not sign a stopgap player would it actually be the end of the world?
We have the possibility of playing D’arcy, Macken, Fitzgerald, McFadden, O’Shea or maybe even Kirchner at 13. And D’arcy, Reid, Madigan, Fitzgerald, Mcfadden, O’Shea at 12. None of these options are without their drawbacks, but mix in a few academy options for Pro12 games, stir until ready and who knows what will come out in a year’s time. 12 months ago who would have seen Noel Reid getting an international cap within a season?
When choosing an option from the southern hemisphere we have to bear development of our academy in mind.
In my opinion Leinster rugby’s stated position of looking out for the right player to fill a hole, but refusing to sign a player just for the sake of it, is probably about right.
Something which has bothered Irish Rugby fans over the last few years is players leaving to go to French and English clubs, sometimes in positions where other provinces are lacking.
The problems….
You cannot, and should not, force a player to go to a team when they do not wish to.
Provincial loyalties, which are generally good and positive thing, can manifest as “negative loyalties” to other provinces.
On the first point. Personally I would be against giving a player an ultimatum that they “have to move or they will never be considered for Ireland duty”. However there is a fine line between this and “you would improve your chances of playing for Ireland with game-time at another province”. Let’s face it, if they go to England or France they will be far less likely to feature for Ireland.
This leads into the second point. Some players would rather stay in their home province and wait in line for game time, rather than move to a province with a need in their position. We can not criticise a player for this as it is what stops our top players like Heaslip and O’Brien from taking top dollar from the likes of Toulon and leaving Irish rugby altogether.
That is one thing but an unwillingness to move to another province because of a perception that you have of that province is another thing altogether. Jerry Flannery for example has said in interviews that he would “never have gone to Leinster” while he was obviously happy to go to Connacht. Sean Cronin has done very well out of coming to Leinster and he would have at one stage felt similar to Jerry.
This serves to illustrate that perhaps other provinces are not the same as a players perception of them might be whether positive or negative, and that “loan deals” might be the way to shatter those perceptions.
The solution……
The recent “loan deal” from Leinster to Connacht of two very promising players, Scrum half John Cooney, for the whole of next season, and Lock Quinn Roux, until the end of the year with a possibility of an extension, may just point the way to a new dawn in this regard.
Mentally, for the players, they have not “signed” for Connacht so they have an opportunity to sample the delights of Galway without committing themselves. Obviously they will have to commit themselves on a week in week out basis from a playing perspective but not permanently.
For Leinster, their players will get crucial gametime while they still retain control of them. Roux for example could well return in January 2015 depending on our situation with injury and international call ups. For Connacht they get 2 very promising players with very few strings.
Win. Win. Win you would think…..
Some provincial fans would resent this system though and say. “Why should we develop players who will end up in another province”
Such people should really decide whether they are Irish Rugby fans or Provincial Rugby fans. Even if they decide that they support Province over Country, they would do well to remember that Irish Rugby is structured from the top down and not like England and France where the Clubs are completelyseparate entities.
Some of them would be the very people to cite the advantages of having unions in control of the game rather that private clubs. Sure there are downsides, like having to rest international players on demand, having less control over signings etc.etc. But the upsides outweigh the downsides I would have thought.
Currently Leinster seem to be churning out a lot of Tight head props. We have Martin Moore and Tadhg Furlong who look like they could play for both Leinster and Ireland for many years and behind them now are Terenure’s Craig Trenier, Blackrock’s Jeremy Loughman and Roscrea’s Oisin Heffernan.
None of these are in the Leinster academy yet, but there are rumours of the first 2 heading north to Ulster.
Is this a bad thing? Surely it is better to keep them in the overall IRFU system than ship them off to a French D2 side, Rotherham or even London Irish? They can always return to Leinster should the opportunity arise, and they would not be “lost to Irish Rugby” in the way that a talent like Niall Morris might be.
When all 4 provinces have players falling out of trees in every position there will be time enough to export some……
So, in summary, perhaps the inclusion of a “foreigner” as the performance director of Irish Rugby (rather than David Humphreys for example) may facilitate these moves with a lack of “perceived” provincial bias, perhaps some new ideas and the “neutrality” to broker possible deals.
In the final episode of the season, the Blues Talk team take a look back at Leinster’s victory over Glasgow Warriors in the Rabodirect Pro12 Final. We discuss the performances over the season both from the team and ask who has impressed the most.
Blues Talk TV 